What Authors and Creators Can Learn From Each Other

Podcast 41 min read

Publish & Prosper Episode #113
Published April 1, 2026
Listen on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Complete List of Channels

In this episode, Matt & Lauren reflect on their recent trips to two dramatically different events: London Book Fair and Sponsor Games.

One is an international event attended by over 33,000 publishing industry professionals from around the world; the other is an intimate, interactive gathering of content entrepreneurs dedicated to learning how to secure brand deals and sponsorships.

Attending these two events back-to-back highlighted the overlap and discrepancies between two types of creative audiences, so we’re asking the questions:

🤔 What can authors learn from content creators/entrepreneurs?
💡 What can content creators learn from authors?
🫱🏻‍🫲🏽 What does it look like when someone is taking the best from both worlds?

Complete Episode Transcript

Matt: Welcome to another episode of Publish & Prosper. We are back from weeks of traveling.

Lauren: It's been 84 years.

Matt: Feels like that long since we've sat in these chairs, to be honest with you. I'm almost wondering if we should have had them cleaned while we were out.

Lauren: They’re probably dusty.

Matt: Yeah, I would imagine.

Lauren: I was convinced I was gonna come back to my desk just under, like, a complete layer of dust. Perhaps some cobwebs.

Matt: You're ridiculous. Yeah, I'm going to leave that.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: You’re ridiculous. I've had this weird tinge of guilt for the last 48 hours. Because I told you... canceled a trip that me and my family were going to take for spring break for the kids. Because we just don't want to deal with, you know, there's a lot of –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – stuff going on at the airports and things. If you're listening to this at the end of 2026, maybe this makes no sense, but. Right now, in March of 2026, the airports are a mess.

Lauren: Maybe at the end of 2026 airports are shut down entirely. So who can know.

Matt: Gosh I hope not. But anyways, so instead we're going to take a trip that we can drive and not have to fly. And the destination choice was Universal Studios.

Lauren: Nice.

Matt: So booked like a whole thing there. And I've just been feeling this heavy Disney guilt the whole time, which I'm sure is ridiculous. But. You know, what's making it worse is in the studio right now, Lauren has this huge Disney 50th anniversary –

Lauren: I knew you'd catch that.

Matt: – like, shopping bag.

Lauren: And call it out.

Matt: That is literally like, down in front of me. You can't see it if you're watching the video, but.

Lauren: No.

Matt: That's all I can see. And so –

Lauren: I’m sorry.

Matt: – it's like

Walt Disney is just staring at me and like, with that face of like, you filthy traitor.

Lauren: I mean, you are filthy traitor.

Matt: I agree.

Lauren: Is that why you're wearing a Mickey mouse sweatshirt today? So that you can display your loyalty?

Matt: Maybe subconsciously that's why I put it on, I don't know. I think my kids are just getting tired of me dragging them to Disney World whenever we actually do something.

Lauren: Can't relate.

Matt: I mean.

Lauren: That's a them problem.

Matt: Yeah. Anyways, okay.

Lauren: It’s fine.

[2:29] - Episode Topic Intro

Matt: Today what we're actually going to talk about is what we feel authors and creators can learn from each other. And I just want to be clear, when we say authors and creators, we are speaking specifically in terms of the differences between the two personas or types of creators. An author being somebody who traditionally identifies as an author, spends the majority of their time writing and creating books, whether it's fiction, nonfiction, whatever. And a creator being somebody who actually, sort of, is not confined to one particular medium or another. They are in the business of just creating content. You know, not necessarily agnostic– or, you know, tied to one particular platform or medium, but is creating content solely for the benefit of monetization, potentially creating a brand or a business around it. So that's kind of how we're defining those two. And there are definitely some things that we think one could learn from the other and vice versa.

Lauren: Yeah. Cause I think there's – you know, this is absolutely not us saying that these are two completely –

Matt: No.

Lauren: – disparate groups. In fact, we've made the argument –

Matt: Certainly overlap.

Lauren: – repeatedly that they should overlap. Yes. But it's, it's – I think it's mostly like, having just gone to these two events that we're going to talk a little bit about, just back to back and, and realizing the difference between... Like one that was very, very author focused and one that was very specifically content entrepreneur and content creator focused.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Just kind of realizing, like the different approach that both of these audiences have to their content creation in general, and then also like how they approach their business or brand or whatever they're identifying it as.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: So this is on the heels of we just returned from a couple of weeks of travel for two events. London Book Fair.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Which is a huge publishing industry focused event. I think the numbers that you pulled, or the stats were, it had about just over a thousand sponsors or vendors – Lulu was one of them – with booths there. And then looks like they've published that they had about 33,000, give or take, attendees.

Lauren: Yeah, that was reported by Publishers Weekly.

Matt: So it's a, it's a large show. But it is very much industry focused. It covers a broad range of, of industry niches. So everything from, you know, foreign rights and rights acquisitions to sales and distribution for actually the larger publishing houses. It's where a lot of people go to try and, you know, close the deal on, on partnerships with other brands or other publishers or their manufacturers or vendors or partners. And there's always a dedicated space for indie authors. And Lulu typically straddles that space between the indie author headquarters there and the, the technology and printing section, and the two theaters or stages that, that kind of represent both of those. That's, that's usually where we sit. So we're on the heels of that one. And then, you know, if you want to tell them a little bit about Sponsor Games.

Lauren: Yeah. So we, we left London and came back, came back to the US and then immediately flew to Texas. Which even just the, just the, the distinction between London and San Antonio, Texas… Just polar opposites in every way.

Matt: Immediately being – yeah. Within 24 hours you were on another plane.

Lauren: Yeah. Well, it took Matt a little longer.

Matt: Actually flying. It took Lali and I a little longer, yes.

Lauren: Yeah it was, it was a rough travel experience for you. But I made it to San Antonio and, and Sponsor Games was – I don't want to say the polar opposite, but Sponsor Games is a, is a three day –

Matt: I think polar opposite is okay.

Lauren: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: In a good way.

Lauren: But like not – not in a negative way. That’s what I mean.

Matt: In a good way, yes.

Lauren: Polar opposite, but not in a negative way.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Just in a – this is like, literally a 50 person, including sponsors and vendors and everything, and Justin's team. This event is put on by Justin Moore. And –

Matt: Creator Wizard.

Lauren: Creator Wizard, author of Sponsor Magnet.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: And this is a very, very like concentrated intensive workshop. It's a super interactive workshop. It all takes place in one room. There's no, like, breakout spots or anything like that. It's not like, you know, London Book Fair is this big, sprawling over the course of four show floors and –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – and smaller rooms and everything. Sponsor Games is like, super concentrated, tailored specifically to this group of content entrepreneurs to help them learn how to pitch themselves for sponsorship deals.

Matt: Yeah, to secure brand deals and sponsorship deals from, from other – yeah. So it is very much tailored and curated, like you said. So I do think it's the polar opposite of London Book Fair.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: But, but again in a good way.

Lauren: Yeah.

[7:29] - Reflecting on Both Events

Lauren: But it was just, I mean, going to these events back to back, it was, it was just very, like, eye opening of like, wow. Seeing how differently people approach the idea of publishing a book, the idea of working with brands or vendors or partners in any way. The questions that we would get from authors at London Book Fair versus the questions that we would get from creators at Sponsor Games. It was really interesting to kind of see that juxtaposition. And there were more than one instance throughout that where I was like, man, I wish I could put this person in touch with this person. And they could –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – help each other out here.

Matt: It's also a very stark juxtaposition between how people treat their brands –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – and their content.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: We often will go from a publishing event to a creator event, fairly regularly.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: But because the turnaround was so tight this time, I think that's what made us go like, huh. Like these are so vastly different. Normally we've got a few weeks in between each event. We've already settled down from the last one. You go into the new one, you know, fresh eyes again. You've kind of already forgotten about the last event you were at and you're focusing on this one. We came into this one... They were so tightly, you know, conjoined in terms of time. Even though they spread across vast amounts of space, like going from London to San Antonio, Texas, you know.

Lauren: Which was a very cool city.

Matt: Multiple time zones.

Lauren: I did like San Antonio.

Matt: Anyways. So, yeah, it was just a lot more, I think, obvious to us this time. Yeah. Some of the things that we're going to talk about and so, you know, those are things like, what do we think authors could learn from creators and content entrepreneurs and, and vice versa? And what does that look like when somebody is kind of in, I guess, that Venn diagram middle section. Like as a creator, as an author, what happens when, you know, the two worlds align like just perfectly? Like what is the, the outcome there? What's the desired results? What does that look like and what could you expect from that?

Lauren: You're so determined to not use my Hannah Montana reference and say the best of both worlds. But don't worry, I'll do it. Happy 20th anniversary Hannah Montana.

Matt: Guilty as charged.

Lauren: But I do also, I kind of want to pull this in before we dive into –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – the episode topic itself. Because as I was, I actually came across this article from Publishers Weekly as I was looking for the info on how many people attended London Book Fair. And Publishers Weekly had done a little write up on it, I'll link it in the show notes, but there were some some interesting things in here that I wanted to point out. If you're listening to this or a couple of our other recent episodes, and still questioning the relevancy of this to you as an indie author, or you as a content entrepreneur, or whatever. First of all, I did want to, you know, kind of remind everybody I love an event like Sponsor Games, where it is a small fifty person event, hundred person event, whatever. I love that kind of like intimate, tailored, personalized setting for events. I mean, I also love London Book Fair or ComicCon or BookCon or something like that. But –

Matt: Yeah, sorry, I was ordering lunch.

Lauren: It's – oh my God, am I missing the lunch order?

Matt: No, no, no. We're sorting it out, don't worry.

Lauren: Okay, great.

Matt: I agree. For me, I will say I used to be terrified of these smaller events where you’re in one room, it's curated. You know, there's typically less than sixty, seventy, seventy, sixty people, whatever, it doesn’t matter. Because as an introvert, like –

Lauren: Oh yeah.

Matt: – that forces you to kind of be a much more active participant in the event. And I'm, I like to kind of hang back and just get the feel of it and then, you know, try to add value where I can, without being like – But I will say that the way that Justin and his team curated and, and, executed this event was a much different experience and much more enjoyable, and it really made you want to step in and be an active participant in that, so.

Lauren: I just think there's something really nice about the like, you kind of get to know everybody. And like, everyone gets to know you. And it's like you can actually take the time to answer somebody's question, like specifically. If someone's coming up to you –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – and is asking like, how would books work for me? Like, you can actually be like, okay, like, let's take a step back, what's – tell me about your content channel. Let's talk more about your goals for that. Whatever. You can spend more time with people.

Matt: Yeah, that's the fun part of our job.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Sorry, I didn't mean to –

Lauren: Which – no, no, no, I – I'm glad you did. Because, you know, I’ve also like, sang the praises of how much I loved Momentum, Lou Mongello’s event, which is very similar.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Fifty person –

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: Single room, multi-day event. But there is still a lot of value in these, like, massive industry –

Matt: 100%

Lauren: – events.

Matt: It's just a different kind of value.

Lauren: Yes. And one of the things that, that Publishers Weekly pointed out in here is, London Book Fair “primarily serves as a venue for the rights trade for English language books, and is a bellwether of what the world wants to read.” So I think that's really, really important for people that are invested in publishing in any way, whether it's traditional or indie. If you are an author who is actively putting out books, or a creator who is trying to find the right type of book to put out in the world, you have to be paying attention to these events. I'm not saying you have to attend them, but you have to be paying attention to the news and insights and announcements that come out of events like this, because it's really letting you know what's trending in the industry right now. Which brings me to my second quote from here, which is very relevant to the episode that we just put out... I think it was two weeks ago at this point, about indie publishers or indie authors securing more traditional publishing deals.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: This is a direct quote from Jake Bauman, who is the SVP for Literary Development at Sony Pictures Entertainment. Because remember in that episode we talked about how it's all media corporations that own the publishing companies, so they have a vested interest in this. He said, “the conversation feels more fragmented, fan-driven IP and books coming out of the self-publishing pipeline remain a major focal point, while upmarket commercial book club fiction continues to be the dominant lane agents are pitching.” That's really important. It's really important to know that this is what pne of the VPs at Sony Pictures Entertainment is saying.

Matt: Yeah, it’s, it’s –

Lauren: The self-publishing pipeline is important.

Matt: Well, it's also a stark contrast between the two. So when you look at the media world, they're looking at the self-publishing pipeline, indie published content, which includes creators and people who operate in the creator economy. On the flip side of that, you have the literary agents who work on behalf, you know, of of the big five publishing houses. And from a literary standpoint, you know, books being published, they're looking elsewhere. They're looking at that whole sort of book club segment. And those are typically your, your best sellers and a lot of the more top name authors. So that's a pretty stark juxtaposition.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Between the two industries and what types of content they're looking for and where acquisitions are being made.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Which is then also why this conversation is so important and why it is so important for us to say like, hey, if you are an author listening to this and you are in any way struggling with like, you know, I, I heard your episode or I'm listening to, to you guys talk about things like traditional publishing deals or leveling up my books or reaching new audiences or whatever, but I'm having a hard time doing that. Because you can learn from creators and how they're approaching things.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And how that translates to you.

[15:52] - What Authors Can Learn From Creators

Lauren: So for the subject of what authors can learn from creators. Number one most important thing is how to treat your content as a business.

Matt: Yes. Yeah.

Lauren: Absolutely.

Matt: Yeah. I think where content creators, content entrepreneurs and just, you know, people who identify as creators in general, where they get it right is that is sort of the core function of what they perform on a daily basis. It's not creating the content. That's actually a smaller portion of what they do. It's, it's the promotion of that content. It's the monetization of that content, and it's the treating that content like a business so that they can rinse and repeat and grow whatever it is they're trying to build, whether it's a brand or something like that, and whether it's for the purposes of, you know, something long term that they hold on to or something they want to build an exit from. They're treating it like a business, you’re right, absolutely.

Lauren: I think that there's... I mean the, the question that I got asked the most, I should have kept the tally, honestly. But the number one question that I got asked at London Book Fair by authors coming up to our booth was –

Matt: Where's the bathroom?

Lauren: No, that was an easy one because it was right down the aisle from us. No, it was: does Lulu offer marketing services? And everybody wanted – that was, that was the hot topic. And it has I mean, it has been for years. The report that we did last year, the Books and Business Insights Report that we did last year, the top challenge that the respondents reported facing – regardless of what their income level was, or time invested, how they're approaching, whatever – the top challenge was marketing. And I'm pretty sure our 2023 report that we did with the Tilt also had very similar results.

Matt: It's always going to be that.

Lauren: It's always going. It's always going to be that. It is, absolutely –

Matt: Cause here's a secret. And don't come at me in the comments – or you can, I don't care. If, if you're a publishing-related business, you don't do marketing well. Right?

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're Penguin Random House or Tor or some other cool sub-imprint of a bigger imprint, or a hybrid publisher. If, if, if you're making claims about being an expert marketing team or – it's just not true, it's not right. It's – you're either super good at publishing or you're super good at marketing. You're not super good at both. Most... it'd be very rare to find one. So that is almost always a problem.

Lauren: Yeah. And, and that was that was a point, that – I had this conversation several times with people. Where, you know, we were kind of going back and forth and they would be like, well, first of all, I don't understand, like, why can't I find any self-publishing company that offers marketing services as part of their like, like suite of solutions? And I was like, you're never going to. You're never going to –

Matt: Well you'll find them, but they suck.

Lauren: But they – or they won't be, they won't be valuable, or you're going to have to pay.

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: Like you're definitely never going to find them that it's a free part of their services. But then we, you know, we'd go back and forth on this for a little bit and then the, the person would be like, well, so you're saying that I have to go traditional publishing if I want to do the marketing for me? And I would say no, because they're not going to do it for you either. They will do some. They will provide more marketing support than a self-publishing or, or indie publishing service will.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: But, you are still – as the author, most authors that are traditionally published in any capacity are doing some marketing on their own too.

Matt: Well, they're hiring freelance marketers –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – or publicists or people to help them, which I think is the right way to do it.

Lauren: Absolutely. Absolutely. But it's not – there is no, there's no – anywhere, there's nothing anywhere that is doing 100% of the marketing for your book as an author.

Matt: And if they are or claim that they are, they're not doing it well.

Lauren: No. I wouldn't trust them.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And I definitely wouldn’t pay them.

Matt: I mean, we're marketers that work for a publishing company.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: But I mean, we still don’t offer marketing services. Like the core of what we do is publishing technology. It's about getting books into the hands of readers, period. And, you know, primarily through direct sales channels and things like that, but. You know, marketing is better left to marketers, not publishing companies or, or publishers who claim to have a marketing department that will – Like just go find a good marketer. And by the way, if you go outside of the publishing ecosystem to find marketing help, whether that's, you know, a freelancer or an agency or otherwise. You're probably going to get some cooler out-of-the-box types of, of marketing tactics being deployed on your titles. Which are ultimately probably going to lead to better book sales and more discoverability. So I would always go outside of the publishing ecosystem if you can. But again, back to, to the the topic here, that is the number one thing that creators and content entrepreneurs get right, is they treat their content as, as a product. It's the business. It's it's – so, you know, the business of getting that product monetized to create long-term growth. So, I just think that there's a there's a lot that authors can learn there. And sort of bridging that gap is not easy. But the more that you immerse yourself as an author in that, that sort of creator and creator marketing world, and better understand what they do, I think the better off you'll, you'll be able to support your own efforts.

Lauren: Absolutely, 100%. And that's, you know, I guess, I guess one thing I really kind of left out of this topic is how. How people can go about doing these things. So if, if you are listening to this and this is resonating and you're like, wow, yeah, I that's – I would like to add some, some fresh marketing perspective. Go find a content marketing event. Go find – whether it's an in-person event or like an online, like a virtual workshop or a webinar or something. Find something related to... like an introduction to content marketing. And start there.

Matt: Yeah. And to be clear, you know, try to find something that is very much focused on content marketing.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And not just, you know, don't go and immediately sign up to the largest general marketing event you can find. Those are oftentimes worthless as well. They're big pitch fests for big brands. But go find a smaller content marketing event. Maybe start with one that's virtual and online. I mean, we love in-person events. I think there's no denying the value of those. But if this is your first time, you know, potentially attending or participating in a content marketing event, maybe find a virtual one. There's plenty of them out there that are, that are pretty good. So that would give you a better idea. And then maybe branch out and find yourself an in-person one. There's a lot of those out there as well. You know, we've talked about Momentum, which is Lou Mongello’s. That's a great one. There are several others. And I know of a few more that'll be popping up next year that are in the works. So, you know, just, just look for those.

Lauren: I think there's definitely a rise of like, smaller, focused events.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Like, I think that's something that we're really seeing more and more of, whether they're in-person or online. And I absolutely, you know – and we've done whole episodes on how much we like in-person events. And I'm never going to knock an in-person event. But if, if you're just like, you know, feeling out this space and seeing like, okay, is this, is this the right direction? Like, can I actually get value from some kind of like content marketing education here? Start, start small with something that's not a physical commitment that you have to travel to.

Matt: Yeah. The next thing I think that, that authors could really learn from creators or that creators do really well, that authors sometimes or oftentimes don't – or just don't really know to focus on – is building your brand. And so a lot of authors tend to focus and go from title to title.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And what they don't put enough emphasis on, or spend enough time doing, is building their brand as an author or a creator, as somebody who creates content. And I think that's where creators often get it right in building their brand. Whether that's them as a, as an individual and that's your brand, or you actually create a brand. But either way, building that, and that brand association, so that people come to recognize that whatever comes from this brand, whether that's a person or entity, they can trust that it's quality, that it’s something they're going to enjoy, that it's worth spending their money on.

Matt: So creators do that really well.

Lauren: We talk about the idea a lot of... like, the instant buy, like things that we're fans of that we don't need to know – whether it's an author or a music artist or whatever. Whatever it is, I don't care. I feel like that's always the goal for any kind of creator. And I think that's something that content entrepreneurs and content creators are really good at. Like, I'm going to follow you... There are people that I've – I think I told you about this, Jeff Sieh and Katie Fawkes just launched a new live video podcast that they're doing every Friday. Like, it's The Makers Table, I think. And it's literally just the two of them. Jeff whittles and Katie's crocheting, and they talk while they're doing it. I'm there. I love it. I – because I like these two people a lot and I like their content and I find value in their content and I'm down for following them on like, whatever new journey they're going on, because I'm curious to see where it goes and how that unfolds. And when you have like a loyal audience, when you are a creator that has built this loyal audience, you can get them to follow you on that journey.

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: And I think that authors can definitely benefit from that too, because that's the goal, right? You want to have the kind of base of readers that whatever new book you’re, you're going to put out, they're going to come and buy it from you.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. We have an author, Katie Cross, that works with us, that she's done a really good job of building her brand. And so, you know, when she travels, you know, sometimes... An example. She had to come to the area where we're located, our headquarters in the Durham area, for a wedding. But, you know, she can and many times, just put out there like, hey, I'm going to be in the city. Are there any fans, people that want to meet up and, you know, get together and, you know, talk books or whatever? And, and oftentimes, most times she has a lot of takers. And again, it's when you build that direct connection with your, with your fans, with your audience, with your customer base, and you really do a good job of building your brand so that people come to recognize it. You can do things like that and you can monetize in a number of different ways. And, you're going to see the long... probably the long term benefits of what you're doing. You're going to realize those a lot faster than somebody who's not, so.

[27:08] - What Creators Can Learn From Authors

Lauren: So this isn't in any way, shape, or form an opportunity for us to just knock on authors for an hour.

Matt: No, not at all.

Lauren: Because they're, you know, what you may have noticed from the intro or the title is that we are very much saying that these are things or there are things that these two audiences can learn from each other. So there's definitely plenty that creators can and should learn from authors as well.

Matt: Well, and both of us have a very high regard and respect for authors in general. And their craft –

Lauren: Of course.

Matt: – and what they do. As avid readers and book nerds, like, absolutely we're not knocking authors at all. And in fact, we, we do a lot of this because we want to elevate –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – most of the authors that are out there that, that, you know, are struggling with some of these things. So. As you just said, though, there is a flip side of this coin, and we think there are things that, you know, again, on the heels of, the heels of these two events, there are things that we think creators could learn from authors that authors do really well.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: One of them is what I just mentioned, and that is the actual craft of writing. Like, you know, there, there’re just – there's a very clear difference between somebody who, who knows how to write really well, enjoys it, knows the craft, understands how to put together a good story or narrative. And when you can do that, the actual content doesn't even matter.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Like, if you can craft content properly, if you can write a good story or a good narrative, if you know the elements... What the actual content – you could be selling me, you know, a 1955 Ford that has no wheels on it. You know, half the engine is missing, no exhaust, and the paint's peeling off. But if you wrote a really good story and narrative around it, I'll probably buy it, I’ll at least come look at it. Like. So, you know, understanding craft. Like the, the, the, the whole concept of, of properly outlining and writing content and then editing it. And the difference between, you know, writing an actual book versus short and long form content for digital and social media outlets and things like that. Like understanding the craft, I think, is, is a big, important part.

Lauren: Absolutely it is, because I do think that, that's you know, probably the number one pushback that we get from creators when we're talking about the idea of using a book for their content or their brand –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – is the, you know, the people that are saying, well, I mean, yeah, I understand the value and I think that's a good idea, but I'm not much of a writer. All right, homie, a bunch of people that are writers aren't much of a writer either.

Matt: That's true.

Lauren: They had to learn. They had to develop their craft. They had to do – I went to grad school for creative writing. Like.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: That is something that you have to actually, like, learn how to do and how to, how to work at. And if you are somebody who understands the value of this, but you recognize, like, yeah, you know, all of my content creation so far has been short form video content. And yes, I write scripts for these short form videos, but writing a script for a three to five minute video is nowhere close to writing a full length book. Like, yes.

Matt: Agree.

Lauren: You're not wrong about that. And even if you are going the route of taking your existing content and, and organizing it into a book, that's still – like you still need to understand the craft of how to do that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And the way to learn how to do that is to go learn from authors, because they have perfected that already.

Matt: It's what they do all day, every day.

Lauren: That is, that is, in fact, exactly what they do. So I think that's hugely valuable. And kind of on the heels of that, and to go along with that, then, is the storytelling that goes with it. And whether that's storytelling within the content of your book or storytelling as part of your overall brand narrative.

Matt: Yeah. And specifically for creators, you know, understanding how storytelling is actually a marketing tactic –

Lauren: Absolutely.

Matt: – it should be the core of your marketing. And on a side note, I was just looking at – so, another event we’ll be attending soon is put on by the IBPA. It's called Publishing University. They announced their keynote speaker, maybe a week ago. It's Donald Miller. Donald Miller writes the, the StoryBrand, sort of, series of books. It's – they're basically marketing books though. And it's all about, you know, using story and storytelling and narrative to, to market and sell. It's a perfect overlap.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: You've got a publishing conference here, once again, who the keynote speaker is an author that actually writes about using storytelling and narrative to market and sell things. So, you know, there's clear overlap here. But again, creators understanding craft and then now also understanding how to use storytelling as your marketing, you know, the core of, of your marketing. Like, like I said, if you can, if you can craft a really good story, if you can write a really good story or a really good narrative around whatever it is... like, you've won already. Like, you're going to suck in some readers, you're going to pull in some interested parties, and you know, without it you're not. But I think some of the best nonfiction content that I've read – fiction, obvious – but nonfiction content I've read always starts with some sort of, you know, either personal anecdote or just a really good element of a story that kind of – it draws you in. Even though it's nonfiction. Like, you just get this really comfortable sort of feeling when you start reading this content. So, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I think that if more creators were able to craft really good story and narrative around their content, or the, the concept of something, a product or brand or whatever it is they're doing, they would find success faster as well.

Lauren: Yeah, I will drop a link in the show notes, if you want to learn more about that event.

Matt: I think something else that, that authors tend to do really well, when they are able to, to sort of execute on it, is connecting with their audience. And so a lot of actually achieve this without trying too hard. Oftentimes what happens is a community will spin up around an author, sometimes unbeknownst to the author initially, but nonetheless, once it is known, authors are typically really good at connecting with their fans and their readers and things like that. It's – this is – this doesn't mean that the creators aren't good at building an audience, but there's a difference between building an audience, right? That, that will potentially purchase content from you or participate. And being connected with that audience.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And participating with that audience and really being a part of that community, versus just facilitating something. And I think that's really cool.

Lauren: Yeah. I think that's... Because obviously, I mean, we just talked about this in saying what authors can learn from creators, creators are very often good at building that audience and building a fan base of people that are fans of their brand and not of a specific piece of content of theirs. And that's what authors need to be doing more of. But I do think that for a lot of creators, they find themselves kind of stagnating at a certain point within that. Where they're like okay, I've got, I've got my audience. Like, I've got these people that follow me on social media, but I'm having a hard time mobilizing them, or I'm having a hard time getting them to convert from Instagram followers to email subscribers, or getting them to buy my content or join my paid community over here. Or whatever. And I think that for a lot of creators that find themselves stuck at that level... go check out what authors are doing. Go find out, like – authors are getting people to, like, their street teams to promote their book for them for free. How are they doing that? Go figure that out. Go learn from them. Go see what they're doing. Worst case scenario, you get some new ideas for how to try building up those audience connections. They can't hurt.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But I think it's always... I mean, the same thing that we said kind of throughout this episode. It's, it's never a bad idea to just step outside of your area of expertise and see what other people are doing in, like, the next industry over.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Or a tangentially related industry and just see, like. So, fresh perspective, fresh eyes. What are people doing here? How can I relate that back to what I am trying to do?

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And I think that the people that we see having the most success in both of these fields are the people that are doing that and taking the best of both worlds.

Matt: Yeah.

[36:26] - Learning from an Author Doing it Right

Matt: I think when we talk about where all this meets in the middle again, that that part of the Venn diagram where there's overlap and that's, that's usually where your, your, your success happens. Your sweet spot. That's where, you know, all of these things are working together harmoniously to, to help you sort of grow. When we talk about people who have done a really good job with that. You know, on the author side we mentioned Katie Cross. Katie's done a fantastic job of all of these things. You know, on the author side, obviously no shortage of being able to generate really good stories, really good series in a couple of different genres. She's a prolific and avid writer. And has built a really good, solid fan base. But also part of her success was that she's utilized a lot of these things that we talk about that are typically found more on the creator side, or people who are really doing more of the marketing and sales stuff related to growing a business. And she has put a lot of that in place over the years. She's spent a lot of time, a lot of trial and error, and she has devoted a lot of her time to trying to teach other authors how to do it, oftentimes for free. You know, she, she speaks at a lot of author conferences, or has in the past, on how to do some of these things. She's very open with, you know, her experiments. Where they've failed, where they've been successful. So, you know, if you're looking for a great example, on the author side, of somebody who has, you know, squarely landed in the middle of that Venn diagram and is clearly, you know, got a good grasp on how to combine all of these different tactics and the best of both of these worlds. Somebody who could move freely, if she wanted to, from London Book Fair to, you know, Sponsor Games or you know, CEX or another creator event, over to DragonCon and then back – like, she would have no problem moving in any of those circles.

Lauren: Oh yeah. Not just –

Matt: Because she's commanded a really good grasp of all of those tactics and all the ways that she would put those things together to build this, this brand that she has around her name as an author or creator at this point.

Lauren: I mean, yeah, not only could she easily find relevancy in attending those and connecting with the other attendees there, but she could probably give a speaking session at every single –

Matt: Absolutely.

Lauren: – one of those events.

Matt: Yeah, that's my point.

Lauren: That would be relevant to the people there.

Matt: Anybody can –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – go and show up and attend these events.

Lauren: Sure.

Matt: Yeah. But she could absolutely get on a stage at any one of these events and talk about what she's done. And it'd be relevant to everybody in that audience.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: For any of those events. Period.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, she's done sponsorships for her stuff. She has secured brand deals. She has secured, you know, other types of publishing deals. On the flip side of that, she's pretty much indie published everything that she's done. Successfully. She's got a great direct sales channel.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Where she establishes connections.

Lauren: Fantastic examples of, of using direct sales –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – to build your audience to like, tailor and customize that, custom – oh my God – to customize that customer journey and that experience, where it's very clear – I'll link her website in the show notes, definitely go check that out if you're curious about any of this. Because it's really, like, it's very well branded. It's very well designed. She has a clear like, if you're here about this book series, go here. If you're interested in this book series, go here. She's, she's very, very like, specific and intentional with –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – everything that she does. And it's because she treats her writing business as a business.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. And to that end, by the way, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, all these things that you should do. You know, having a website or a storefront and all these other things. You know, again, in terms of treating it like a business, she recognizes the value and when, when you can afford to pay an expert to do it for you. Just like we said earlier, if you're in that author world and you're not great at marketing and sales. And you've already tried, you know, working with a publisher to get your stuff marketed and they failed, which they normally will. Go find a freelance marketing, you know, consultant or an agency or somebody or – she has paid somebody at this point to build up her website and her Shopify storefronts so that it does have that very professional feeling. So that it does, you know... the user experience is very much cohesive across all of the different, you know, genres and books that she writes. And so, treat it like a business. Invest the money and the time, when and where you can, as you continue to grow along the way.

Lauren: I do also want to point out within that, that if you're reluctant to pay for marketing services because you're like well, that's just, like, a never-ending money pit, I'm just going to be throwing money into that forever. Absolutely not, if you're doing it correctly. If you're hiring the right kind of agency or freelancer –

Matt: Or if they're doing it correctly.

Lauren: If they’re doing it correctly.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yes. Because it should run itself after a while. If your marketing is done well, it should continue to build on itself without you having to pay somebody to do it –

Matt: And there’s –

Lauren: – if they’ve set it up correctly.

Matt: Well, but there's also always a quantifiable return on your spend.

Lauren: True.

Matt: You know, almost every bit of, of, especially performance or digital marketing, but in general, almost every form of marketing – Now, events gets a little murky. It's sometimes hard to track. But, you know, if you're paying a marketer to do stuff for you, typically they're doing digital stuff. It's, you know, paid ads and social media stuff. That is all quantifiable, trackable, you – there's a return on your spend. If that return on your spend is 200% or higher, it doesn't matter what you pay them, because you're making double back. So who cares what it costs. It's working. So yeah, keep doing it. The flip side of that is, like you said, like... If it's not working, you're going to know. So stop spending that money. Tell them to figure it out, or go find a different marketer to work with, or a different agency to work with, or something like that. But marketing doesn't have to be this scary, unknown void of like, oh, I'm just throwing dollars into this well, and I'm not seeing any – it should not be.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Most of the marketing that you would be doing, you should very much be able to see in black and white the return on what you're spending.

Lauren: Yes. And it's also, it should build on itself in the sense of like – Of course. – if you are, you know, if you're building the audience base now, if you are investing in paid marketing to build this audience base now, and then you're continuing to funnel content to that audience to develop those relationships with that audience. Then by this time next year, maybe you don't have to pay to market your next book to that audience. Because they are loyal enough at that point –

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: – that they're going to buy it from you without the paid marketing.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: So you're, you're paying to establish your, your marketing setup and then building on it from there. Maybe with tapered –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – investment.

Matt: Yep. Yeah.

Lauren: For sure. And also before we move on to the next example, I do want to point out that Katie is a fiction author. So if you're listening to this –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – and you like well, it's all, it's always the nonfiction, it's always the business people or the entrepreneurs or whoever. No no, Katie is doing all this as a fiction author.

[43:48] - Learning from a Creator Doing it Right

Matt: On the nonfiction side – or on the creator side, I should say, not nonfiction necessarily, but. On the creator side we worked with someone recently or, you know, fairly recently. His name is Austin Church. And he basically... his whole sort of business, what he does is he educates other freelancers on how to charge more money, how to make more money as a freelancer. Whether you're a freelance graphic artist or a freelance writer or freelance, you know, some sort of consultant or designer. Austin has become, you know, one of the leading sort of, I think, experts in how to operate as a freelancer, get paid what you need to get paid to lead the life that you want to lead. But what Austin does really well, you know, not just on that creator side with the business stuff, but in keeping with the spirit of what we're talking about. Austin's style of writing, you would think that he has a fiction background. Like, he understands the craft in and out, like he's just an extremely talented writer. And the way that he writes – almost every long form piece of content he puts onto LinkedIn, even short form, for that matter. And his book that that was, you know, an amazing book. There's so much story and narrative built in, like, it's just easy to read anything that, that Austin writes. His LinkedIn posts are great, his newsletters are great. They always start with some sort of, again, a personal anecdote or story or something funny or self-deprecating, you know, with him or his kids or his family or just anything in general. But they're always entertaining. And he's almost always, if not always, able to tie it back in to some sort of marketing or sales concept that helps people further themselves in their business, in their brand. So he just does a really good job of bringing in, like we talked about those those elements, you know, that are most closely associated with the craft of fiction writing, you know, and this idea of weaving storytelling into actual marketing and sales copy.

Lauren: I think there's a really underappreciated value in that. I am subscribe to Austin's newsletter. I am not a freelancer. I don't think 95% of his content is relevant to me in terms of like professionally, what I have any interest in doing, but I open and read that newsletter every Friday.

Matt: Yeah, I never thought about that.

Lauren: The fact that I know it comes out on Fridays. I read his newsletter every Friday morning when it shows up in my inbox.

Matt: That's, that's actually a testament to what I just said. Because –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – I've never thought about that either. I'm probably the farthest thing from a freelancer, but I read every single one of his newsletters… Yes. Yeah. And quite frankly –

Lauren: Because he’s such a good writer that I want – like, I read them. For fun.

Matt: – some of this stuff actually, I don't think is is just for freelance people. There are things that he has written about where beyond the, you know, the, the entertainment value of reading something that he's written. It just makes you feel good. It makes you want to keep reading. There are concepts that I've, you know, pulled out of there. That doesn't matter if you're a freelancer or you're, you know, C-suite as a marketer at a publishing company.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Like, they're relatable, there's value there. So again, I think that is a testament to, to the, the craft and the ability to, to use story really well.

Lauren: I think there's also, the value in having people that are invested in your brand or content, especially if they're not related to it. Like – cause I can understand people maybe hearing that and going, okay, well like, why do I care if people are engaging with my content, but like, they're not going to buy my course or my products or whatever? There are, there are plenty of people that I'm a fan of their work without it being relevant to me, that I'm basically just sitting here waiting for them to put out something that is relevant to me. And the second they do, I'm going to buy it, or I'm going to subscribe to it –

Matt: I’ll actually –

Lauren: – or I'm actually going to participate in it, because I want to support them.

Matt: I'll actually do one better.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: The reason why you should care, potentially, is because while yes, I do find value at times in what he's written as a non-freelance operator, also understanding that a lot of the content is geared towards freelancers. What I will say is, you know, it would be easy to say well, this isn't relevant to me, I'm not going to keep reading newsletters. But they are so entertaining, they do draw you in. And any time I'm in a room and there's freelancers in the room...

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Do – who am I recommending to them? There's only one person.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Austin Church. So yeah, you might go, well, again, what do I care if people are, are reading my newsletters or my content regularly, but they might not be able to partake in the services I'm offering. You should care because they have a mouth. Word of mouth is applicable in almost every in any scenario, whether they've paid for your services or not. If they find value in who you are as a creator, as an author, and what you do, chances are they know somebody that could benefit from your content. And you will be the first one, or the first name that comes out of their mouth, if you're able to establish that kind of a connection with them.

Lauren: I was just telling somebody this at Sponsor Games, when we were there. That last year at CEX Justin was walking around handing out copies of his book to people. And loudly handing out – like he was like, we were in a big, like, open atrium and you could hear him throughout the whole room giving out copies of his book to people, for free. And three months later, when I was at Momentum, somebody asked a question in the room about sponsorships. And before I could even open my mouth, three other people in the room that had all been at CEX, said you gotta check out this guy Justin and his book Sponsor, Sponsor Magnet. And that is where it becomes relevant, because even if none of them – and I don't know if any of them had, were interested in sponsorships or read his book, or were looking at it or whatever. But immediately passed on that recommendation. And I watched that happen in real time.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And was like, wow, that's fun. Great.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So absolutely relevant and absolutely cool to see it happen. We love to see it happen. Would love to see it happen more, you know?

Matt: Well, I mean, I think we will.

Lauren: I think so too.

[50:34] - Episode Wrap Up

Matt: There's a lot more author and creator events on our schedule for this year, so.

Lauren: Can't wait.

Matt: And I don't see that changing any time soon.

Lauren: So you're not totally burnt out on travel?

Matt: Or I'm burnt out on travel.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: 100%. But –

Lauren: And, and when are you going to Universal?

Matt: In three days. Yeah. I'm burnt out on travel. Doesn't mean I get to stop traveling. It doesn't mean we get to stop doing events. I mean, that's a big part of what we do, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Lauren: I mean, you already know this, but I literally on the flight home from San Antonio, booked a flight to Orlando. Because I said, if I'm going to keep traveling, I might as well get some Disney time in there. So, same. But the travel, it's still fun. What was your, what was your favorite thing we did in London?

Matt: That's a hard one because this year I didn't really do anything –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – outside of the trade show, the book fair. Normally we’re there a little longer, or we, we plan more activities outside of it. But I think this year specifically, my favorite thing about London would probably have to be... And this is kind of a cringe response, but. We drastically changed our booth approach, and our messaging, and our positioning in the market. And so this was the first time we were able to roll that out, and see how it resonated with people. And as a marketing nerd, which I don't talk about very often, that was actually really cool to see. And, and see how that played out in real time. So yeah, I guess this year that would have been my, my favorite thing. Was just really seeing how people reacted to, to our presence this year versus previous years.

Lauren: That's fair.

Matt: So.

Lauren: That's okay.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Well, I'm sure London will, will still be there next year.

Matt: Well that's – Yeah, I hope so.

Lauren: What about Texas?

Matt: Oh, I have to say my favorite part about Sponsor Games this year – cause we were there last year.

Lauren: Well you were there last year.

Matt: That's right. The royal we as, as Lulu.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: This year there was a couple of things. One, I absolutely requested that if we were coming in as a sponsor again this time, that I wanted the Lulu logo branded on the foam of every latte that came off that barista cart in the back of the room. And Justin absolutely made that happen. So that was really cool to see.

Lauren: It was really cool.

Matt: And obviously, not obviously, some of the best coffee lattes I had had in a long time. So shout out to, to Justin and whoever the coffee people were that he hired. But –

Lauren: Shout out to Sara for putting that together too.

Matt: There you go. Yep. Sara Loretta as well. The other really cool thing this year was Justin and Sara had arranged for all of us to have dinner one night on a boat that goes down the little canals there and on the Riverwalk in San Antonio. So we had three or four boats and we all ate dinner having boat rides and a, kind of a tour of that Riverwalk downtown San Antonio area. And that was really super cool. I wasn't sure if I would like that or not.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: But it ended up being a highlight of that event.

Lauren: I agree, that was absolutely my favorite.

Matt: It was also a great way to come out outside of my my comfort zone there and, you know, talk to other people on our boat. So yeah –

Lauren: I know, I was –

Matt: – that was really cool.

Lauren: I was very impressed that you stayed.

Matt: I wasn't sure if I was going to or not.

Lauren: I know, I know. But no, I agree that was absolutely my favorite part, because it was a really – it was a cool way to get to see San Antonio. It was a cool experience. I was sat at a table with a lovely group of people that I got to have some really nice conversations with, and our tour guide was really funny.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Lauren: So, gave us a nice little, like, Jungle Cruise light experience.

Matt: I was going to say he was, he was probably one level away from being a good Jungle Cruise operator.

Lauren: It’s okay.

Matt: If he wanted to be, I think he could do it.

Lauren: We'll help him out with that.

Matt: Run that Jungle Cruise.

Lauren: Absolutely. Alright.

Matt: Anything else you want to talk about? I want to go eat lunch.

Lauren: I do too.

Matt: I’m starving.

Lauren: Do you think it’s here yet?

Matt: I don't know.

Lauren: Let's go find out.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Alright. Well, thanks for listening. Thanks for traveling with us. Whether it was physically or metaphorically. If there's anyone listening that we met over the course of our two weeks of travels there, thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us. And if you have never traveled anywhere with us or met us anywhere, maybe you should. Maybe you should check out some in-person events.

Matt: Go check out our, our new events page –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – that we launched on our website.

Lauren: I’ll link that in the show notes –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – and you can see where we'll be at later this year and see if maybe any of them are the thing that you need to help you out with your author or content creator journey.

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Alright. Like and subscribe. Do all the things. Give us a review, please.

Lauren: Please.

Matt: Yeah, we're still sitting at the same amount we've had for like a year.

Lauren: I know.

Matt: I don’t know if that's good or bad.

Lauren: I don't know. That's a good question. I do know that Apple is rolling out video on Apple Podcasts and so we are going to be introducing that soon on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Cool. So if anyone has any thoughts on that, let us know in reviews.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren: And until then, we'll be back next week with another new episode.

Matt: Later.