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Plot Twist: Indie Authors are Landing More Traditional Publishing Deals than Ever

Plot Twist: Indie Authors are Landing More Traditional Publishing Deals than Ever

Podcast 43 min read

Publish & Prosper Episode #111
Published March 18, 2026
Listen on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Complete List of Channels


In this episode, Matt & Lauren explore the rapidly rising trend in indie authors signing major traditional publishing deals. The real plot twist? These days the authors are the ones with the negotiating power and leverage. We talk through:

🔮 How media influences publishing trends
💡 Outdated self-publishing stigmas (and what publishers are actually interested in)
🤔 Why indie authors would want to secure a publishing deal

And answer a few key questions to help indie authors interested in securing traditional publishing deals!

Episode Chapters

💡 Listen to These Episodes

💡 Explore These Resources

Complete Episode Transcript

Matt: Welcome to another episode of Publish & Prosper. Today we're going to be talking about something you probably never thought we'd be talking about. Or maybe I shouldn't say that. Maybe we would be talking about it. We're certainly happy about it.

Lauren: On the surface it does seem a little antithetical to our normal interests.

Matt: I don't think so anymore.

Lauren: I, I – well, I think that by the end of this episode, anyone who thinks that this is not a topic that makes sense for us to talk about will realize that it actually makes perfect sense for us to talk about.

Matt: Yeah, and it was one of our non-prediction predictions.

Lauren: It sure was.

Matt: For 2026.

Lauren: It was.

Matt: So it's okay.

Lauren: Okay.


[1:00] - Episode Topic Intro 

Matt: Today we're talking about the, the increase of indie authors who are getting traditional publishing deals. And specifically they're getting traditional publishing deals that work better for them. So there's a lot more creative rights being retained. We're seeing a lot of print only deals where the indie author’s getting to keep the rights to their ebooks, their audiobooks, anything digital. Sometimes they're negotiating, you know, production rights for TV and film or things like that. And I think that's really cool.

Lauren: Yeah, we're seeing specifically a rise in indie and self-published authors that are less so surrendering their exclusive rights across the board and more so partnering with traditional publishers. Still in terms of like, the traditional publishing contract, but with a little bit more nuance and negotiation that benefits the indie author.

Matt: Yeah, that's still the, the subtext. The, the headline is they're getting more deals.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: More than ever. But the subtext is, yes, they're getting more deals with that flexibility.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: But the reason why the headline is that they're getting more deals is because it wasn't that long ago where we were in a world where they just weren't looking at indie publishing at all. And in fact, they were looking in the opposite direction.

Lauren: Yeah, there was, you know, not that long ago – I just got distracted by your socks. I really like them.

Matt: You know, these are my winter wool socks. And I finally bought a new pair of Docs so I'm, I'm breaking them in before we get to London. And the thicker the sock you wear the better when you're breaking them in.

Lauren: I learned that lesson last year when I got these. Although these are softer. These are the soft leather, so.

Matt: Yeah, these are just the old school like, thick leather. Like, they’re stiff. But.

Lauren: They're very aesthetic with the fit. They look good. Good – good job. Good work.

Matt: Thank you. I'd love to say I have a stylist, but I don't.

Lauren: No, you're doing it all on your own. And that's great.

Matt: Typically in the dark.

Lauren: Fair enough. Anyway, yes, I think that absolutely, we... Not that long ago, we were in a place where, you know, it might even be considered a mark against you. It probably was a mark against you.

Matt: It definitely was.

Lauren: There are still people –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – today that might say, that might warn you against oh, if you really want to, want to traditionally publish this book or any book, self-publishing is, is a taboo. Like definitely don't do that. This is a myth, and we will prove that to you. But it's been really kind of a wild change over time, and I think it's really cool and interesting to see how it’s going.

Matt: Do you think it's fair to say that this has really become a thing moreso in the last... let's say five years – because of the rise of the romance genre and all of the subgenres that have been spun off from it in the last five to six years?

Lauren: You're not going to like my answer to this. Maybe. Yes. I think partially yes. Because while there are definitely examples of, of books that –

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: – were self-published and then either the book itself or –

Matt: There's always outliers.

Lauren: – there’s always, yes, like in other genres. This is predominantly something that happens in the romance – like a lot of the, the deals that we're seeing in the last couple of years have been specifically romance authors. But I also think that – and, and these things go hand-in-hand, because the rise in the romance industry –

Matt: Hold on. I don't dislike your answer, by the way.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: That's the answer I was hoping for.

Lauren: Well, you're gon– you're not gonna like this next part.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: And the answer – that answer is TikTok. And BookTok.

Matt: I’m less fond of that answer –

Lauren: I know.

Matt: – yeah.

Lauren: I know.

Matt: But I can’t argue with it.

Lauren: The rise in popularity of niche romance –

Matt: Niche romance?

Lauren: – is because of the rise in popularity of BookTok. So.

Matt: Wait, so you, you put that chicken before the egg? BookTok before the rise of romance?

Lauren: I think that BookTok is what it, is what instigated the, the rise in romance popularity.

Matt: The more recent sort of explosion?

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: I mean, because I think there was a rise and then I think there was an explosion.

Lauren: Yes. And I think BookTok is responsible for that.

Matt: At least from somebody who's kind of looking outward in as not a romance reader, as somebody who knows maybe a fraction of what you know about that. If I'm looking inward at that, that whole, you know, umbrella genre of romance, which there's seventy-five other subgenres in there. Like, to me, it seems like there was an explosion right around COVID.

Lauren: Yes, yes. And I think –

Matt: For obvious reasons.

Lauren: And I think that BookTok is what facilitated that –

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: – explosion. I think it was people were –

Matt: I can’t confirm nor deny that.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: It's interesting.

Lauren: I mean that could be a whole episode topic. I won't subject you to that. Maybe I'll make someone else do it with me –

Matt: I appreciate that.

Lauren: – or I’ll do it by myself.

Matt: I absolutely appreciate that.

Lauren: But I could easily I could probably do that off the cuff right now without outlining anything. Do a full –

Matt: You should do that by yourself.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: And we should call it something totally different than Publish & Prosper.

Lauren: Okay. Alright. Hint received.

Matt: JK.

Lauren: But yes, I do think those things are absolutely connected. That this rise in the popularity of romance is directly influencing the, the interest in publishers securing deals with self-publishers. I also think – and this is a little bit of a tangent, and I'm sorry for that – that we have to kind of acknowledge that... that it's also connected to the unwillingness of major corporations to take risks anymore. And I think – when was the last time that you saw a movie that you were like, wow, this is an original concept? This is not –

Matt: Well, let me just say I agree with you.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: Because back to your original point, I don't think this is some, like, shift in how traditional publishing is now really viewing indie authors as more credible as... There's, there's – that's where the dollars are.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So. Like a corporation, they need to go where the dollars are. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I, I like to keep the baseline on my side of the fence over here. Like these are businesses.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And they function like businesses. And when they're hemorrhaging money, they have to go where the dollar signs are. So what you just said still lines right up with how I feel about this. Whether or not it was all spurred on by BookTok or anything else, they're still doing kind of what we expect them to do.

Lauren: Yes, absolutely. This is still like... you know, it's cool because it's getting a lot of exposure to indie and self-published authors.

Matt: I agree with that.

Lauren: It also happens to be helping the bottom line for all of these major corporations.

Matt: And I agree with that.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: I'm a capitalist at heart.

Lauren: Which –

Matt: To a degree.

Lauren: Yeah. I mean, you know, one way or another, like, we can't – one can't exist without the other. Kind of. These days. So that is what it is. But like in the same way that we're seeing a rise in movies and TV shows that are all spinoffs or sequels twenty years later or remakes or this is an adaptation of a book into a movie or TV show, because studios are less willing to take risks on unknowns because there's no guarantee of return. They're much more willing to take risks, take risks on something that they say, oh, there's, there's clear, there's clear market –

Matt: Well –

Lauren: – there’s a known market for this.

Matt: But also let's be clear, this is all about content.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And all of the big five publishers, they're owned by media companies.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: They're not owned by publishing companies. They're owned by media companies.

Lauren: The publishing – 

Matt: So there is –

Lauren: – companies are owned by media companies.

Matt: Exactly.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So there is a chain here.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So what you just said is also somewhat applicable to the way that they prove out content for the screen. They'll test it first at their publishing companies through those imprints, or whatever that might be. If it tests well as a book – boom – it gets kicked up the chain. Those media companies own TV and film production houses and things like that.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So, yeah.

Lauren: You’ll see it –

Matt: It’s all about content.

Lauren: – sometimes. It is. Absolutely. You'll see it sometimes – if you are... if you are an author that is listening to this, whether you are a fiction or nonfiction author and you have any interest at all in securing any kind of traditional publishing deal or like media rights deal. So whether that's TV, film, even audiobooks, like in some cases. If you are not paying attention to deals, announcements in places like Publishers Weekly or Publishers Marketplace or something, I would highly encourage you to do that. Because you will see trends that, you know... If a book went to auction, if you see that and you're like, I don't know what that means. If a book went to auction, that means that multiple publishing companies were quite literally at auction fighting for the rights to secure this deal because they all wanted it. That tells you something about the popularity or the projected popularity of that book. Maybe it'll tell you something about oh, like they're, they're shopping around for this type of content. Because remember, these deals are happening twelve months, eighteen months before the book is going to market.

Matt: Easily, yeah.

Lauren: So it's a good indicator of what's going to happen in the next year or two in publishing. You'll also see things slipped in there that these deals included film option. Sometimes these things happen where they, like the, the book will be optioned for film rights before it's even published. So pay attention to stuff like that if that's something that you have any interest in, because you'll see a lot in there, in those very small short like, two paragraph announcement deals.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Deal announcements.

Matt: So –

Lauren: Sorry.

[10:40] - The Myth of the Self-Publishing Stigma

Matt: Yeah, I think we should just keep talking about this first –

Lauren: Yes. Absolutely.

Matt: This first myth of this idea that, you know, if you self-publish, if you indie publish, that a traditional publisher is not going to want to touch you. And I think that you've already touched on a lot of the things that are happening right now that that really disprove that, to a degree, right? So if you're doing all the things that we've talked about, we continue to talk about, that you're going to see everywhere else. You know, building your own brand, building up your social media following, trying to build an email list where you have a, almost an owned audience, if it were. Like, these are the things that are attracting traditional publishers right now.

Matt: They almost look at your brand first and your content second.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: You know? So. And I think you'll talk about this a little bit later, but even now we can touch on this. That, you know, nobody's going to come knock on your door because you've got a book that you're going to market with, whether it's your first book, your third book. They're going to come knocking on your door because somehow or another you got their attention through your marketing efforts, through your audience, something like that. And they will come knocking on your door now. It's no longer only a game where you have to get an agent and you have to submit to whatever imprints and publishing houses you'd like to work with. They are being more proactive, right?

Lauren: Oh, yeah. That's actually – if that's, if you don't already know that, that is a key part of this episode topic is that, yes, more and more lately publishers are reaching out to authors and not the other way – or not just the other way around. Publishers are actively going out there and saying, we need to fill this blank in our like, title list. Or we need an author that's going to serve this role. We need to find somebody who's going to speak to this market. And they will go out and find people to fill that gap. And the place that they're finding those people is in these self-published and indie published authors.

Matt: The reason why I brought that up though, too though, is just to make the point that there's a – it's a double edged sword. There's two sides of that coin, I should say, not a double edged sword. So the same way that you can get noticed, if you're not doing all those things you won't get noticed. And if you're not doing all those things consistently to the best of your ability, that's, that's going to get you either not noticed at all or noticed in the wrong way. So understanding that if you're not doing things that demonstrate your brand has longevity, things like that, that's that's not going to go well for you. So if you are interested in landing a traditional book deal and, and you're doing all the things. We're going to talk about some of the things that are important as it relates to staying consistent, making sure that you're establishing some longevity and really paying attention to building your brand, and not just focusing on titles or serials.

Matt: Right?

Lauren: There was... there was an article in Jane Friedman's February 18th newsletter – the article’ll probably be behind a paywall, so I don't think I'll be able to link it in the show notes. But if I can, I will. But she, she interviewed several agents about this, and one of them said, “an author who does a ton of online marketing is more likely to receive enthusiastic interest from multiple publishers.” And, you know, you don't have to take –

Matt: That's a very strong statement, by the way.

Lauren: That is a very strong statement.

Matt: Because when's the last time we really heard something like that publicly, sort of, talked about?

Lauren: Right.

Matt: It's only been recently.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Unless you're listening to us, in which case we say it all the time.

Matt: Yeah, but –

Lauren: But if you're not –

Matt: We don't carry the same weight –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – as a, you know.

Lauren: That's like, like you don't have to take our word for it. These are, these are other people in the industry that are saying it, and these are people who are working directly with authors and publishers.

Matt: Yeah, I think that's important.

[14:28] - The Myth of Untouchable Books

Lauren: Yeah. There's also the myth of... if I publish a specific book, traditional publishers won't have any interest in that. You know, if they want to republish that title, they're not going to have any interest if I've already self-published it.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: We've absolutely seen plenty of cases where that's not true. It happens all the time, where if it's a book that has like, a really strong sales momentum and the possibility to very obviously kind of repackage that, or reposition that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Traditional publishers are absolutely interested in that. And that could be something like if you have a bestselling title that you've only published as an ebook, but you haven't published it in print yet. Or even audio, and they want to secure those rights.

Matt: Yeah. Which by the way, if you're going to go out there and proactively pitch a title you wrote that is out there in the market already, that's the perfect scenario.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: If it's out there as an ebook and it's actually doing really well, that's your best hope of pitching a previously published title to a traditional publisher, by dangling those print rights in front of them, and possibly the audiobook rights or something else.

Lauren: I’m pulling out my notes again.

Matt: Okay, I saw that.

Lauren: The Apple TV show Silo is based on a book called Wool by Hugh Howey, which was self-published on KDP in 2011. And in 2013 – so clearly this has been going on in some cases for some time.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: We're not saying this is a brand new deal. In 2013, he signed a print only deal. And he was offered like, seven figure contracts for complete rights, including his ebooks. And according to an interview that he did with the Wall Street Journal back in the day, he, turned down any offer that would include his digital rights, because he was already earning more than seven figures from his ebook royalties.

Matt: He has a history of that. That's – that's his, that's his background. So that might be a special case or outlier, but it's still a fun thing to point to.

Lauren: But – Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. It is clearly done. It has been done.

Matt: We also have, you know. So. This idea that you've already published a book, it's no good now to a traditional publisher, is just, is just – like you said. So the other big, big, big one that happened that really kind of helped bust open the floodgates was 50 Shades of Grey.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: And what a lot of people don't know is that book was originally run through Lulu.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Or that series, actually. And it wasn't until those books – that one, specifically, and the subsequent ones – started getting attention. And then I think there was a publicity effort put in place where I think EL James appeared on a, I don't know, Good Morning America or something like that. That's when a traditional publisher approached and said hey, shut down all your, your indie, you know, outlets for this. Let's repackage this. We want to pick it up. We'll buy it from you, you know? So again, those titles had already been in the market. They had actually been run through Lulu. They were going through traditional indie publishing channels and distribution channels, and that did not stop a traditional publisher from coming along and picking those up, repackaging them, putting them back out into the market.

Lauren: There is one very, very key thing that you mentioned in there that is really important –

Matt: What’s that?

Lauren: – to include in this. And that was the word series.

Matt: Oh yeah.

Lauren: There are definitely examples of this happening with one off titles, but predominantly when you see this happening with major books that are getting scooped up, either completely traditional deals or hybrid deals, they are part of a series. And it is usually the case where some but not all of the series is out yet, and they're seeing like really good success –

Matt: Yeah, momentum.

Lauren: – with the first few titles in it. And then a traditional publisher will come in and say, hey, we want to publish the remaining titles.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And we will also repackage and republish the ones that are already out, in the meantime, while we're waiting for that next big release.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. But again, it's all about momentum. It's all about the brand you're building around yourself as an author. It's not – and we've said this a thousand times, if we've said it once, it's not about one title.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Don't, don't get so wrapped up in one title, or even one series. Don't devote all of your efforts to, you know, framing yourself as the writer of this title. Build your author brand, build your, your audience base. Do, do everything you can to own as much of that content, those email addresses, everything that you can do. Because that's just going to better position yourselves in front of a publisher, if that's, if that's what you're hoping to do.

[19:15] - Why Secure a Trad Pub Deal

Lauren: You might still be asking the question of why you'd actually want to.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: Especially in the cases of, like that Hugh Howey deal.

Matt: Or even Brandon Sanderson.

Lauren: Or, or Brandon Sanderson. There are, because there are so many examples of this with hybrid published authors that have done a little bit of both. If you are having this great success, if Hugh Howey was having such great success with his ebooks that he was making – do you know how hard it is to make seven figures in royalties on ebooks alone?

Matt: Well, especially back. then.

Lauren: That, I mean –

Matt: If you were selling it for more than $0.99 you weren't selling it.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Right. Like that. I can't imagine what his sales numbers must look like. That's insane. But why then why would you want to? Why would you have any motivation to be like, sure, I'm going to sign a traditional publishing deal, when you're clearly doing just fine on your own.

Matt: Yeah. Why would you want to?

Lauren: I mean, first and foremost, call it what it is. A lot of authors just really want that. You know, if that's something that you dreamed of, if that was part of your, like, dream writer journey, that's okay. It is totally okay to say, yeah, I'm having great success, but one of my landmarks of real success in my own head would be to sign with a big five publisher, and if that is genuinely the only reason that you want to do this... do it. Do it. That's totally valid. There are also plenty of strategic and like –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – logistical reasons that too.

Matt: And to be fair again, so the examples we threw out there of people turning that down, the one with Hugh Howey, back then there wasn't the, the advantages and leverage you have as an indie author now.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Meaning now we have these advantages where you bring the audience, you bring the brand, and you have more leverage to negotiate more favorable contracts. Back then you didn't. It was either give them all your rights or you don't get a contract.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Period. So I think that, you know, in the instance of Hugh Howey it was a little easier for him to be like, no, I'm good. These days I think it would be a little bit harder. But I think that now, like we talked about at the beginning, it's just different. You have more leverage, you have more momentum built up where, you know, you don't have to just take whatever contract they put in front of you. So even if your goal is to be able to say, I'm a traditionally published author, or I landed a traditional publishing deal for at least one of my books or one of my series, you have much more power today to do that in a way that's comfortable for you, but also financially viable, that makes sense. So yeah, I think that if that is your goal, great. More power to you. Like why not?

Lauren: There are still ultimately some things that traditional publishing will give you access to that, that self-publishing never will. In terms of opportunities –

Matt: Like?

Lauren: – for authors. Like, I mean, you're going to have an in-house team that you've never had access to before on your own, like you're absolutely –

Matt: To do what?

Lauren: Marketing –

Matt: To tell you no, we're not going to publish this cover? No, we’re not gonna –

Lauren: Sure. But also maybe, maybe you're tired of having to deal with doing the cover design on your own.

Matt: That’s fair.

Lauren: And this is an opportunity to get a professional in-house team to do it for you. Or maybe you want you're interested in expanding with foreign rights, but you don't really know where to get started with that. And you didn't want to listen to the episode that we did on international rights, which you should. It'll be in the show notes.

Matt: DropCap.

Lauren: But if you wanted somebody else to kind of manage that for you, this is an opportunity for you to have a team of people that are helping you with your brand expansion, or with getting you in front of new audiences or licensing your, your foreign rights or your media rights and handling all that for you. Even things like depending on how much you were doing alone on your own right now, the formatting or the editing, all those things that you might be outsourcing to freelancers to do.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Will be in-house, which, you know.

Matt: Yeah, I mean.

Lauren: We've talked I mean, pros and cons of –

Matt: It’s a trade off.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: They'll take it over but you lose control of it.

Lauren: Yes. So you know, but if it's something that you're looking on scaling, if you're looking on, on like, new ways to expand and grow and you've kind of maxed out on what you are capable of doing right now, traditional publishers can expand –

Matt: I think that’s the biggest benefit.

Lauren: – a little further than that for you.

Matt: Honestly.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: The others are benefits depend on who you talk to.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: But in my opinion, those are just all disadvantages. I think the biggest advantage that comes with being traditionally published is the brand expansion component. So what effort they will pump in to expanding your brand, i.e. getting your titles out there in the world? That's the, that's the huge benefit. So their distribution network, their ability to, to all of a sudden have your book on a bookshelf potentially, in a bookstore somewhere in, let's say, the UK or something like that, you know, outside of the US or where you live or where you're currently at. Or vice versa, if you're in the UK and you're trying to break into – I think that's the biggest benefit. Because they have such, you know, established distribution footprints around the world. Everything else, in my opinion, is a disadvantage. It's all stuff you could do better and cheaper. But, you know, there's no denying that what they do afford you, what they do bring to the table after you know, many of them being in business for 100 years or more, is that global expansion effort in terms of physical proximity in a bookstore or at a book signing or, you know, whatever that might be. So.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: But that's my opinion.

Lauren: No that's fair. That's fair. I mean, we've, we've debated the pros and cons of all that stuff before, so.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: I'm not going to, I'm not going to disagree with any of that.

Matt: Yeah. For me, if I was going to consider a traditional deal, which I would, that's the only reason.

Lauren: Yeah?

Matt: That's it.

[25:20] - Understanding Publishing Deals and Author Brands

Lauren: I think it's also very key to understand that you partnering with or signing a traditional publishing deal or whatever, working with a traditional publisher, you are not just offloading all of the work onto them.

Matt: Oh yeah.

Lauren: Whether you view that as a, as a pro or con, you are absolutely expected – A traditionally published author is absolutely expected to do marketing work, publicity work to, you know, reach out to their own audience, sometimes even to, you know, have their own strategy for how they're going to do launch and stuff like that.

Matt: One hundred percent.

Lauren: This is not – you are not completely hands off. So that expectation is always going to be there.

Matt: I've heard lots of stories where they ask you.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Like even if you're submitting through an agent, you better also be submitting a marketing plan or a sales plan.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I mean, that's just more commonplace, like 100%.

Lauren: Which is a thing that they're going to do even if you are not, even if you have never self-published, if you are a debut author that is trying to secure a traditional publishing deal, you have, you have no background in any kind of publishing. They are absolutely going to be looking at details like do you have an existing audience? If you are not, like not an existing audience of readers, are you at least somebody who has a social media following of some kind? Or do you have a newsletter that you are regularly email emailing people, even if it's not related to the topic of your book? Like you have an opportunity to reach out to people that are already fans of you. That is absolutely something. They are not just looking at the content and quality of your book, they are looking at your ability to sell that book to people.

Matt: Yeah. I think they're also looking for... While I'll never agree that a traditional publisher wants to take an author and build a brand around that author. As we've already touched on, there are benefits to the publisher participating in brand building with the author. It's why it's so important that they sign authors and they curate authors and brands that A., like you said, it already exists, but in many cases, B., align with who they are as a publishing company or that particular imprint or whatever that might be. So, you know, I think that's why you see so many niche imprints these days, too. Is to make sure that from beginning to end, there's alignment on the content, the audiences. When you have a large publisher, let's say Penguin Random House, it doesn't behoove them to just take in all these different types of content and then try to publish those out into the world under that, you know that brand of Penguin Random House, you want to have these smaller imprints where the entire staff of that imprint, that's all they focus on is that genre or that subgenre. They live and breathe that. They understand the market economics for that particular genre, and they're going to make sure that they get the best return on every title that they acquire and then put into the market. So, you know, I think having an established brand is super important, but also knowing and being aware of the imprints that exist related to the genres and subgenres that you write in is really important, because if you do choose to go at this proactively, those are where you're going to start with. Those are going to be the ones that if they're going to look at you, it's going to be the ones that line up with your genre. You can't just go straight to the front door of Simon & Schuster or Penguin Random House, because they're not going to open the door.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: So.

Lauren: Right. I think that is something – And I fully recognize that this is coming from somebody who is, is neck deep in the book industry in so many different ways. So I know this is not the average reader experience, but in the same way that we've talked about how we have like, instant-buy authors, like it doesn't matter what or –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – or musicians even like a band is putting out a record. I'm ordering the record before I've ever heard it.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: You know, that's fine. And I'm going to come back to that too, because that's also part of the brand building thing. I have realized in the last few years that there are imprints that like, I realized that a lot of books I read fall into the same few imprints, like publishing imprints. So when I'm at a bookstore and I'm browsing the bookshelves and I see an imprint that I recognize as one that I read from often, and I don't recognize the title or the author, seeing that imprint name on the spine will be enough for me to at least take the book off the shelf and read the back cover.

Matt: Because you trust their editorial team.

Lauren: Yes, because I'm like, oh, I normally really like stuff from this imprint. Like they have a brand. I'm usually interested in what they're sending out into the world. So let me see what this is and see if this sounds like something... So that is – and they're doing that on purpose. Even if you don't realize it, even if you don't recognize it as a reader, that is something that is strategic on their end. But also, to go back to the idea of the instant-buy author, that's what we're talking about when we're talking about building a brand for yourself. The authors that are on your instant buy list are on there because you know that you're going to get the... not the same thing, necessarily, but you know –

Matt: Consistency.

Lauren: You know what you're going to get from them.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Whether it's consistency in terms of quality of writing, consistency in terms of you know what like, what tropes are going to be in the book or what, like what to expect from – you know it’s always going to be a happy ending or you know it's going to be a mystery that's going to have some kind of like, unexpected plot twist. And even if you're looking for it, you're not going it – you're never going to figure it out because they're really good at burying the lead on that. Whatever it is, that is their brand. They've built their brand. They have sold you on the idea that this is what you can expect from their content.

Matt: Every author develops a formula.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Just like most movie and TV writers and directors and producers do. So yeah, you're just, you're – that's what you fall into.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: It's the same for me.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: It's the same for you, and everybody else.

Lauren: And that's what, that's what publishers are looking for. And so are the readers.

Matt: Consistent, sustainable publishing history.

Lauren: Absolutely. This is actually – this is a really interesting point, I think. And I kind of buried this in here, that's on me. My bad.

Matt: That’s why I was pulling it out.

Lauren: I'm glad you did.

Matt: You just dumped a bunch of dirt on it, but.

Lauren: It's okay. Because not just are they, are like, you know when I'm saying like, long term brand, publishers are looking for something that they can say, oh, we can see five, six, seven, eight, ten titles coming out of this.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: You know? Like in romance, there are a lot of series where it's like, in – go with me on this. You'll see.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: So like.

Matt: I mean, I don’t have a choice.

Lauren: The first – they're all standalone, technically –

Matt: I’m a captive audience.

Lauren: You are. You really are. But like, the first book that comes out, there's a best friend of the main character.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: And the best friend is the main character of the second book. And then in the second book, the best friend has a younger sibling. And the younger sibling is the main character of the third book, and so on. And they build on each other in that way. That is something that has longevity. So that is something that, that publishers are looking for. But they're also looking for, beyond the content, the consistency with which you are publishing your books. They want to see that you are putting out books regularly, that it's not one in one year, and then three two years later –

Matt: Just random whenever you feel like it.

Lauren: – Right. Consistent publishing. They want to see that you are putting out books when promised. So if you have a bunch of examples of hey, I know I said I was going to publish this in March of 2026, but I'm not done with it yet, so I'm pushing that back to May of 2026. And you do that four times in a row. That's, that's not going to bode well for you. But they also – and I think this gets overlooked too – they don't want to see that you're over-saturating the market either.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Putting out a book a month is not always a good thing. Because if your readers are used to that, the traditional publishing industry can't keep up with that pace. So if your, if your readers are used to getting one book a month from you and then you sign a trad pub deal and now you're putting out one book a year, or even two books a year.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: There is a chance that your sales are going to drop off because of that, and that that's not actually going to be a benefit.

Matt: Well, mathematically, your sales will drop off.

Lauren: Well, that too.

Matt: But from a market popularity standpoint –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – that's where I think you get hit the worst.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Because if your fans do have to go from, you know, getting their hands on your content once a month, essentially once every other month, to now having to wait six months every time for a new – Yeah, they're going to, they're going to get distracted by other authors and other things. And you know, before you know it, you're way down on their list of favorite authors because they found new ones that are sort of satiating that appetite.

Lauren: Yeah. You want you want there to be some demand for, oh, I haven't gotten a new book from this author in a while. I'm excited to get my hands on it soon it comes out. As soon as it comes out. I skipped like three words in that sentence.

Matt: You're just talking so fast you get ahead of yourself.

Lauren: Eh, that's what happens.

Matt: That's what happens when you talk about traditional publishing deals?

Lauren: Yeah. This is funny because this is an episode topic that Matt pitched, but it's right up my alley, so thanks. This is a nice gift for a Monday afternoon.

Matt: I don't know. Yeah, sometimes I don't even know what I'm talking about.

Lauren: That's okay.

Matt: When I pitch stuff to you. Or maybe I should think more about it before I pitch stuff to you.

Lauren: No, I think you should – I think you should just let me loose on a topic and see what happens.

[35:27] - What You Need to Know

Matt: I know that some people are going to be sitting there wondering, okay, great, all this is going on. I kind of knew this, but thank you for validating it, whatever, whatever. Should I get an agent? Do I need to get an agent? I'm not even sure how to answer that because we see it going kind of both ways. But I think kind of the point of why I pitched this and what I liked about, you know, this topic in this narrative was the fact that so many people were achieving traditional deals without an agent and negotiating their own rights. And I really liked that. Because I hate to share my money with somebody if I don't have to. I'm not belittling what agents do by any means, but you know, they aren't necessarily free and clear of blame when it comes to the stigma that was placed on traditional – or, indie published authors for all these years. I mean, a lot of that started with the agents, not just the traditional publishing companies themselves.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Because let's remember, most of what was making its way to the traditional publishing companies was coming via agents. That was and still, to a degree, is the only way to get, you know in many cases, your manuscript into the hands of somebody, whether it's on the editorial team or the sales team or the marketing team, at a traditional publishing house. So if I'm listening to this... what to do?

Lauren: More and more with this specific topic, it is kind of becoming up to the individual author. There are a lot of self-published authors or hybrid authors that are working with agents in some way already. And if that's the case, if you do happen to be working with an agent at the time that a traditional publisher is trying to secure a deal with you, they will work with your agent and not you. So if a traditional publisher reaches out to you, if you already have an agent, they will, they will negotiate with that agent and not with you. But if you, if you don't have one and they reach out to you, they will negotiate directly with you. If it's the other way around, where you are still, like you are self-publishing still but you are starting to shop around to traditional publishers, I think you do need to have an agent still to do that. Because most traditional publishers these days are not accepting un-agented submissions, even if you are somebody with a proven track record. Unless they reach out to you first and ask you.

Matt: Yeah. So it sounds like, again, if you're trying to be proactive and landing a traditional publishing deal, that an agent is probably still the best way to go about it. But if you are hoping to attract a traditional publishing deal to what you're doing, i.e. building your own audience and doing all these things, then it's not necessarily something you have to have.

Lauren: Right. I mean, I think it's something that in the same way that you can represent yourself in court if you really want to, but you may not want to...

Matt: I don’t know if I’d use that because I don't know if that's ever a good idea, even for a traffic ticket.

Lauren: Worst case scenario, an agent can always be there to just make sure that your contract is legitimate and that you are not missing or overlooking something. So it's never a bad idea to have an expert be involved in some way or another. It doesn't mean that it's necessary. But you know, if you want a second opinion, if you're trying to understand better, like, how do I get somebody else to help me with this negotiation? An agent is, is your solution to that.

Matt: So we talked about, you know, some of the things that attract traditional publishers, like – and we keep using this word brand and audience. But I'm a data person. Is there anything else that I might be able to like... You know, if I'm selling direct I have sales data. Obviously I’ll have my data if I'm selling, you know, through KDP or distribution, Ingram, or whatever. Like, is that stuff that they're going to want to see? I mean, I guess to a degree, they can already see that if there's ISBNs attached to my work. But is there other stuff or can I really just, you know, rest easy on the fact that I've got 20,000 followers on my Instagram and, you know, 15,000 on Facebook or whatever? And, you know, I've got a pretty decent track record of ebook sales going – like, is that enough?

Lauren: I think that absolutely, both of those – sales data and direct audience data – is very, very relevant and a very key selling point to attracting traditional publishers, or proving your longevity and value add to traditional publishers. Sales data can be great, not just for saying like, I've sold 20,000 books of all, like cumulatively over time. Because that doesn't necessarily prove anything, because it could have been 19,000 book sales from one viral hit that you had ten years ago, and you haven't come anywhere close to that ever since.

Matt: That's a good point, yeah.

Lauren: And they have ways of looking that up. Unless you are exclusively selling direct and there is no like, sales data anywhere online that they can find, they have ways of checking that. But if you can say I've sold 20,000 books cumulatively over time and you can track consistently the steady sales that you have and the steady growth in sales over time, that's proving that you are consistently growing, that you are going to continue to grow from here, that your brand is expanding, that you're like maintaining and generating new interest from audiences. If you have the ability – and this you may or may not have, reason to sell direct – if you have the ability to prove repeat purchases. That's fantastic. If you're able to say look at all these people, maybe it's that you have some kind of subscription –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – set up, or maybe you have a Patreon that is proving demand from like, these people get early access to my titles, or these are all the, these are all the people that signed up to be potential beta readers. Like, you know, I asked for five beta readers and I had a hundred offers from random readers.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Like that's, that's proving demand, that's proving that these people are already fans of yours. So repeat purchases are a great thing to prove. And then the, the direct audience and the direct sales having, having that kind of customer data is really powerful because of the reasons that we've talked about for why you want to be selling direct. Instagram followers are great. Having, having Instagram followers, that's great. You cannot guarantee that if you post on Instagram to those followers that they're all going to see it.

Matt: Oh, a hundred percent.

Lauren: But you can –

Matt: They won't.

Lauren: I mean, they definitely won't. We know they won't. But you can pull up: here's the number of people that I have on my newsletter list, here are my open rates that prove that I have a lot of dedicated readers that read it regularly, which means that when I send out an email to this newsletter and say, hey, I have a new title coming out and surprise, it's traditionally published with this publisher, and they're going to do this whole big pre-order thing with a special edition packaging or whatever… You can very heavily imply that X number of people –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – of your dedicated audience are going to see that.

Matt: You can actually do that with your social media stuff, too, if you're tracking it properly. So if you're running any sort of Google Analytics or tag management, anything that you're able to show, like, you know, whenever I put something up for sale on my store or my direct store, you know, 36% of the purchases –

Lauren: Sure.

Matt: – are coming from social media traffic.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: So you, you can piece together a story, a narrative of your sales and where those come from. And that does give somebody else, like a traditional publisher, a general idea of what to potentially expect when they help magnify and amplify that audience by, by degrees. So yeah, I think that, like I said earlier, I'm a data person. And the idea that, you know, I could take my direct sales data and some of these other things and potentially leverage that as well as my audience size, the maturity of some of my catalog, or whatever that might be, all as a nice little package offering. I think that's really smart. I think that people should know that they have that stuff, too. So.

Lauren: I think it's just regardless of what kind of data specifically it is, just know that it has to be like relevant, provable data. I've seen, I've seen this on more than one occasion, where I've seen authors that in their, like, here's how I'm proving reader interest or whatever, they've included fanfiction stats in there. And that's always really funny to me, because that doesn't mean anything. Because like, fanfiction stats, first of all, while there are definitely fanfiction authors that have dedicated followers, like dedicated readers, there are also plenty of people that are reading fanfiction that are not looking at who wrote it and are just looking at the title, or looking at the ship –

Matt: I see.

Lauren: – or looking at the, the tags.

Matt: It's all about the topic. It has nothing to do with who actually wrote it –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – in many cases. I gotchu.

Lauren: And you're also... most of the, most of the major fanfiction platforms these days do not allow you to to put in the, like author's notes on fics like, hey, if you like this, I have a real book, you should go read it here. You can do things like link to your social media, and then on your social media say that you have a real book and not just fanfiction, but... Now there have been – this is a whole other episode – but there have been some massive, massive titles released in the last year that have been very overtly, blatantly fanfiction turned into traditionally published books. And those are obviously the exceptions. But when I see authors doing things like saying 10,000 people have liked my like, fandom famous fic or whatever, I'm like, that's cool. That's a cool stat. That means you're probably a good writer. That doesn't mean those 10,000 people are going to buy a copy of your book. So it's kind of a vanity metric and not a real piece of data. So when you're, when you're considering what kind of sales or engagement data to include –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – it has to be something that actually proves that you're getting a return or repeatable interest from fans.

Matt: It needs to be something that shows that they're interested in your brand.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah, that makes sense.

Lauren: Wow, you didn't – I – not even a little bit of pushback on that. I just, you know, I kind of – Would we call that growth?

Matt: No... whenever you start talking about fanfiction, I just kind of go into like self-preservation mode.

Lauren: That's fair.

Matt: It's okay. And then I pop out when you're done.

Lauren: Perfect.

Matt: Like I'm going to do right now.

Lauren: Nailed it.

Matt: And actually wrap this episode up, because –

Lauren: Let's do it.

Matt: I don't want to end it on a fanfiction note. 

[46:43] - Episode Recap

Matt: So, at the start of the episode, we talked about why we were talking about this topic. I mean, I think it's great that indie authors are getting traditional deals. That's great. What I think is actually the, the really cool part, is that they're, they're able to negotiate, better than they ever have, and retain rights to a lot of things. So there's a lot of print only traditional deals happening right now. There's a lot of deals where it's not print only, it's actually just ebook only or, you know, whatever that might be. But the point is, you have leverage and you can use that to get a more flexible contract and something that works better for you. Because I would never be in favor – never have been, never will be in favor – of signing a contract where you give away all your rights. I just, I think that's a terrible model on both sides of the fence. And so seeing that flexibility happening right now play out in real time, in ways that it never has before, I think is really cool. So I still maintain my stance. I would want to just keep all my rights and sell direct and do whatever. Just the idea that the, the mere flexibility and freedom exists, I think is super cool. So real quickly, the things we talked about. If you are interested in having a traditional publisher look at your brand, what were the things we talked about that they should be doing?

Lauren: Well, I mean, first and foremost, like we were just talking about, you should be selling direct if you're not already, so that you have that customer and audience building opportunity. But even if you're not, if you do not already have an email newsletter, you need to start one yesterday. You need to start having that opportunity where you have that provable I can remarket to this audience, and I can build up a loyal fan base, and I can prove that.

Matt: Yeah, doing everything you can to build direct connections with your audience.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Maybe it's a community, maybe you have a Patreon or a Circle community or whatever it is, something that you can prove –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – there are people that are interested enough in you that they are not one off, one time buyers, but are actually invested in you and your brand.

Matt: Develop a clear brand.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: While we're talking about your brand.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Like, somebody shouldn't hit your page or your social media and have to wonder, like who – who is this person? What is their brand? Like, are they nonfiction, you know, writing about copyright law, or are they actually sci-fi fantasy writers? Like, your brand should be very clear on who you are, what you do, and who your intended audiences are.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: The last thing some traditional publishing house wants to do is have to figure out, like, oh, they got 10,000 followers, but, you know, are they 10,000 sci-fi followers? Are they 10,000 nonfiction? Like, what's going on here?

Lauren: Which is something that... I mean, we're not saying that you can never branch out, that you’re –

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: – once you're in your lane, you're in that lane forever. No. Definitely no one's saying that. But if you've ever looked at an author and been like, this author is publishing under three different pseudonyms, why do they have three different names? Why are they not just publishing it all under one name? I'd be willing to bet that those three different pseudonyms are in three different genres, and that's why they're doing that is so that they can, like, clearly silo: people that are fans of this brand are following this author name, and people that are fans of this brand are following this author name.

Matt: Although again, yes, it's always about freedom and flexibility. But I would argue if your goal is to get picked up by traditional publisher, stick with one lane.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: If you want to, you know, as an outlier write this one off nonfiction book about whatever it is, because maybe that's your day job or whatever. Fine. But don't make that the central, you know, component of what people see when they come to your website or your social media channels or whatever. Like, stick with the lane.

Lauren: It's easier to branch out later once you already –

Matt: A hundred percent.

Lauren: – have your lane and your brand established.

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: It's easier to say, hey, go with me on this one. I'm trying something new and I've proven to you guys already that you know and love me, so just go with me on this.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: It's a lot easier to do that later than it is to do that when you're still building.

Matt: Part of building a brand is also what will attract traditional publishers, which is publishing consistently.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Which doesn't mean...

Lauren: Over-saturating.

Matt: Saturating the market.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Right? Like once every three weeks or launching, you know, another book in a series that has twenty-seven books in it or whatever that might be. But being consistent, if you say something's going to drop on this date, make sure it drops on that date.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Like, you shouldn't be pushing deadlines and launches on a regular basis, that should be a last resort.

Lauren: I mean, realistically, what it all kind of boils down to is that you need to be thinking like you are an entrepreneur. An authorpreneur if, if you must. A small business owner, a brand owner, a content creator, a content entrepreneur, whatever term or phrase you want to use. You need to be approaching this like it is a business or a brand. Not like you are just writing books based on vibes and putting them out there when you feel like it and hoping for the best.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: This is a business model. You are building a brand and you have to treat it that way.

Matt: Well, and unless you're sixteen, you shouldn't be doing anything just based on vibes.

Lauren: I think it's – I think it's healthy to sometimes go off of vibes. But not – that’s a short term –

Matt: Most people are a bad judge of vibes anyways.

Lauren: Well.

Matt: Like just, just think like a business, act like a business. If your goal is to, you know, just – Yeah.

Lauren: If you want to have a good day, have a vibes based day.

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: If you want to build a good career –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – you need a plan.

Matt: Agreed.

Lauren: You can't just go on vibes.

Matt: If you're lucky enough to get, you know, singled out and approached, try to maintain as much of your rights as possible while being, you know, fair at the negotiation table and understand that you're going to have to give it something, or they're just not going to want to talk to you. So knowing what that is ahead of time is really helpful, too. If your goal is to get, you know, a traditional publishing contract, you should, you should make certain that you already know what you're going to the table with.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: What you're going to try and negotiate. And if that means you're willing to give up print rights and that's it, then you need to know that going in and you need to be pretty firm with that. Or at least, you know, make that clear at the beginning and they may come back with something that's amenable to you. But, you need to know that going into – don't go into a contract negotiation without any clear cut ideas of exactly what it is you want to maintain control of versus what you're willing to give up. If you don't have that clarity around that, you're going to find yourself walking away, probably, with the short end of the stick on that one.

Lauren: And also make sure that your existing rights before you go into that negotiation are not tangled up in something. So if you've already optioned your audiobook rights or something and somebody else currently has access to those rights, you need to be upfront with that with the publisher before you go in there, because that might be a deal-breaker.

Matt: Or even foreign rights, yeah.

Lauren: Or foreign rights or even ebook rights. You know, we've talked about how KDP, if you're publishing on Kindle Unlimited, they have exclusive ebook rights for as long as your book is available on Unlimited. That's, that's part of what you're doing with that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So you know, that needs to be a factor that you're considering when you're negotiating these things, is you have to know who has control over your rights and then what control you're willing to license or, or give up on your rights.

Matt: Yup.

[54:31] - Episode Wrap Up

Lauren: So, yeah, that's... That's that on indie publishing and book deals. I don't know.

Matt: Wow.

Lauren: Happy Monday.

Matt: Yeah. Threw me off of that one.

Lauren: Threw myself off with that one.

Matt: You’re just like – yeah that's, that's that.

Lauren: Like – mmhmm.

Matt: I think it's cool. Again, not necessarily my cup of tea, but I just. I think that's cool. And, you know, anytime you can break norm, anytime you can affect, you know, some mundane, archaic practice that's been in place for hundreds of years? Do it. And this is just another example of that. And whether you want to chalk that up to they're just a business and they're following the dollars, who cares? There's evolution happening. And it's benefiting indie publishing and actual creators. And I think that's great.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: What do your bracelets say today?

Lauren: Oh, you're gonna like them actually. Haunted, Foolish Mortal, and Take the Stairs.

Matt: I do like all of those. There's a theme, I like it.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Anything else you want to say before we shut this down, turn all of this off?

Lauren: I did say in the beginning that I hoped that anyone who was a little suspect about why we were talking, why we be, why we would be talking about this – man, I’m dropping words left and right today – would be convinced by the end of why it makes sense. And I hope that we succeeded in that. Because I do think this is something that's really valuable for a lot of authors to understand right now. Even if ultimately you're like, cool. I have no interest in any, like, traditional publishing deal. As always, it is important for you to understand what's going on in the industry around you.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So that you understand how to better position yourself and your content and your books.

Matt: I'm very proud of you. You got this whole episode, you didn't mention Heated Rivalry once.

Lauren: It's in the outline.

Matt: On that note, please like and subscribe. Leave us a review. Unless you didn't like the episode, don't leave us a review. Do all the things. And then come back next week and listen to another episode.

Lauren: Oh, next week’s going to be a fun one.

Matt: There you go.

Lauren: Come back and tune in then. Till then, thanks for listening.

Matt: Later.

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Lauren

Lauren is the Content & Community Manager and co-host of Publish & Prosper, Lulu’s publishing, ecommerce, and marketing podcast.

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